Student Engagement Is Critical To Learning Success
Colin Klupiec Chats With Richard Andrew
The text below is a rewording of the interview so that it better represents the points discussed and alleviates you of having to read various ‘Australianisms’! The podcast audio is provided below as well.
Without student engagement is there any point in trying
to teach anything?
This is a valid question. Do students actually learn anything of note if they are not engaged in the process? Does anyone? I certainly don't. In this interview-article, Colin and I cover some issues relevant to student engagement and learning.
COLIN: Richard, great to have you back on the show.
RICHARD: Yeah. It is great to be here Colin.
COLIN: When it comes to engagement you have quite an experience. You have been around and seeing quite a lot of different situations. Can you give us the scope of what that looks like?
RICHARD: My first stint of teaching was in Clare High School in South Australia. I am a South Australian by birth. I spent six years there. It was a fantastic start to teaching, and a country boy couldn't have asked for a better, friendly staff and students. But my first year teaching was probably as challenging as it gets in terms of just ‘tough’ - you know, ‘at war with the students’. So, in my first year if I had two good lessons in a week that made for a pretty good week. Conversely, in my second year of teaching, if I had two bad lessons in a week I considered that a bad week. So, I went from one extreme to another.
Then I was struck by the nomadic urge so after 6 years of teaching there, I had probably 7 or 8 years where I was quite nomadic. I did a lot of casual teaching, maths tuition, hospitality and so on. With the casual teaching, I clocked up 30+ schools.
COLIN: So that took you all around Australia, didn't it?
RICHARD: Well, Northern Territory, South Australia and New South Wales. The Northern Territory was a very diverse experience. I’ve had three permanent stints altogether, two after Clare. One was a 2-year stint in a little Jewish school where there were literally 38 students in the whole 7 to 10 school!! That was an extraordinary learning experience. And so I was pretty much the entire mathematics department there.
My final permanent stint was also at a small school - well it was small initially because I started when it was in its third year of operation. And so once again for a couple of years, I was pretty much the entire maths department. Those two experiences allowed me a great deal of opportunity to experiment because, I didn't have a Head of Department saying, "No you can't do that Richard …” I had a lot of free-reign which made it very interesting. But in total, we are probably talking 30+ schools and probably, I don't know, maybe 400 different classes. Obviously, a lot of them were my classes but a lot weren’t.
COLIN: Casual teaching or as they say in the states ‘the substitute teacher’, I think would immediately conjure up images in people's minds of "that person who doesn't get as much respect as the usual teacher or perhaps significantly less engagement". Has that been your experience?
RICHARD: Yes there is obviously that element to it. However, if I am to compare myself in a class with what I perceive is the normal situation with their normal teacher, there would be times, sure, when I think that students are acting up for me in the way that they wouldn't be for their normal teacher. But there’s also the flip side which is kind of sad when you think about it - situations when I clicked with a class after the students realised that I actually had something to offer. And when they say at the end, "Oh Gee I wish we had you as our normal teacher" … I mean it is nice to hear but also a bit sad. And it’s never because I’ve let them play tiddlywinks or whatever. It was because we did some things that the students knew were worthwhile. So, really, casual teaching is a mixed bag in terms of respect.
COLIN: So, it must be quite awkward then to think well what do I say to the regular teacher when I have to report back on what happened, you know? Because you have to write notes about how the lesson went and how motivated the students were and so forth. Is that sometimes being a problem for you as well?
RICHARD: No. No. Not really. If I thought I had performed better than their usual teacher I wouldn’t mention it - I’d just say what the students covered. Actually, it would be a good to mention a few examples here because at one end of the spectrum there was one particular school which had a very good culture and there was one lesson I remember where I looked to the lesson plan and I thought wow … this is quite a complicated lesson! There was equipment and group work and some sort of game situation and I thought “This is going to be interesting - and potentially a disaster!” So I started the lesson and these students took one look at me, obviously thought I could run the lesson and totally allowed me to call the shots. The lesson turned out to be one of the best lessons ever. I didn’t know any of their names … but it was the culture in that school and the culture in that classroom which allowed me to teach well.
Then you have the other end of the spectrum - a class of Yr 9 girls - a classic … I’ve never seen a better strategy by a bunch of students to completely thwart a casual teacher. I look back and take my hat off to them!!
COLIN: Sounds painful.
RICHARD: I walked into this class and it is not that they were running riot or anything. From memory, they were all girls. And the strategy they used was this “Just pretend he is not in the room.”
COLIN: Oh no. You were shunned.
RICHARD: Yeah I know … so they had all these conversations going on and I was politely trying to gain their attention … but to them, I didn't exist. I wasn't in the room. And I’m thinking, "This is phenomenal. These girls have this game nailed. This is a really good ploy. I have never seen this since. It’s as good (bad) as it gets I think!” Somehow, I eventually I got their attention and some work happened but, well, that's an example from the another end of the spectrum.
And then there was a maths class - actually there were quite a few that went like this - but you know what it’s like, you walk into a class and immediately you know these students are not up for doing any work. It ain't going to happen, right?
As a casual teacher, I refused to go war with students. It is just a losing game in my view. I would rather work with students who want to be engaged (and let the engagement spread). So, I simply wrote the instructions on the board and then I quietly said to them "Okay, this is what is required. Everyone got that? Any questions?" And I knew, of course, that initially, nothing would happen. And I was right! But after a few minutes, I walked around the room and sidled up to one of these students (sitting there doing nothing) and said: "What's your name?" "John". "John, it looks to me like you are not intending to do any work today."
COLIN: Just tell it like it is.
RICHARD: Yes. He just looked at me and said “Ah … Yeah. Yeah. Right." So I replied, “I thought so.” And I just moved on. And I repeated this with a few other students. It was a psychological ploy - I just wanted them to realise that I knew what was going on and also, that I was operating a bit left-of-field. I wanted to surprise them a bit and show I wasn’t concerned.
And so I did this with a few students and then went back out the front.
And then a couple of minutes later, I announced to them all "Look, you guys don't know me but I am actually a really good maths teacher - I’m really good at explaining maths. No seriously, I am! Why don't you try me out?"
COLIN: Okay. Good technique.
RICHARD: So, a couple of these kids put their hand up. I wasn't trying to get blanket coverage - I just wanted to ignite some students. So, a couple of these students started asking me questions and so I did my stuff. And they were impressed. The maths I was explaining clearly made sense in a way that I could tell was new for them. And then few other students got involved, and a few more. I didn't win them all over but I probably had half of the students working and engaged in the end.
And so by the end of the lesson, I had some of these kids saying "That was great and I wish we could you all the time." Which was sad because clearly I had hit a mark that their normal teacher didn't - because with a class like you can tell what the normal state of play is. And it ain’t pretty!
COLIN: Yeah and it is interesting, isn't? That despite the initial appearance of no engagement or no desire for engagement, it is kind of there if you scratch underneath the surface.
RICHARD: Exactly - you need to go for what is there, like a seed under the ground.
COLIN: Which leads me to ask you about a comment that you have made about engagement sometimes being the elephant in the room. Why do you think it is engagement, in particular, that is the elephant?
RICHARD: Well, I don't actually think it is 'engagement' that is the elephant. I think it is disengagement. It’s true. I should state that my entire experience has been in high schools. I have some friends who have been primary teachers and I have been in their classrooms. I’m not sure how representative they are of primary teachers generally but they showed me some amazing primary teaching. I do suspect there is generally a higher level of engagement in the primary arena compared to high schools but that's anecdotal - I really have no tangible data on that. But all my experience has been in high schools.
So, if we are going to talk about the elephant I think we need to define what engagement is. You know that recently I built a deck. I had never built anything of consequence before this. I built lots of rustic, recycled wood projects which I enjoy doing but this is the first time I spent serious money on wood and equipment and I thought "If I stuff this up, you know, there will be tears!"
COLIN: You know someone might hurt themselves.
RICHARD: Well yes that's possible but more likely was the possibility of throwing $2,000 down the drain and spending hours and hours on something that I'd have to look at and think "That's absolute rubbish!" How depressing would that be? So, there was a bit of pride at stake but my point is I did a great deal of research for this and stressed out a bit and made plans and double and triple checked and then finally started on the deck and then realised that the real problems to be solved were not even mentioned in the videos I watched. But I got right into it. That was an amazingly engaging project and I am stoked with the product. I think that's a definition of true engagement in a learning process.
But then we come to education in the classroom, and of course, that's what the Learn Implement Share courses are all about. In one of my courses, I ask teachers to describe what they would consider an engaged classroom to be. And I knew you were going to ask this question Colin so I’ve got a couple written down here. One participant's definition of engagement is "An Engaged classroom is one where all students are actively involved with exploring the concept under discussion. It probably doesn't look organised or quiet."
COLIN: Oh that's interesting.
RICHARD: Yeah. And another one was “An engaged classroom is one where students feel they are able to take charge of their own learning, where the teacher facilitates students at their different levels and students are intrinsically motivated to complete their work. They are able to make real-world connections. Engaged students check their answers and actively seek to understand their work. They feel comfortable and safe to offer responses and questions about the content and are able to work collaboratively."
And there are other ones as well but they are all on that same sort of theme. So, if that's what engagement is then the question needs to be asked: What percentage of students today - on any one day - are engaged like that?
COLIN: Yeah and how many of those students would actually all agree with that definition? I mean surely there have to be some students who just don't want to have work that hard during the day to be that engaged?
RICHARD: Well absolutely they don't. But then again most students probably have no idea what it would be like - how much fun it would be - to be THAT engaged in class anyway!
In a previous podcast, we talked about toddlers. If you look at toddlers they are pretty engaged in whatever they are doing. I mean, that's an understatement. They are fully engaged in whatever they are doing!!
COLIN: Yeah that's right. And it seems to go on for quite a number of years until they get into very late primary school or early high school, it really started to tip the other way.
RICHARD: I think it can happen before then. I just think, when education is imposed on kids, the fire goes out. I don't know about you but if someone comes to me and really wants to teach me something that I have absolutely no interest in, well, I’m not going to learn anything. But if I want to learn about building a deck and I’m talking to you and you have already built one, then I am going to be picking your brains big time!
I think the issue has a lot to do with institutionalised learning. When learning is imposed - “Right, we’ve developed the curriculum for you and we are going to state what you are going to learn and how you are going to learn and when you are going to learn” - then I think the fire begins to die.
COLIN: Well, I think that's why you are probably hinting at the fact that it is disengagement that's the elephant in the room; because, when the students get to that point where they start to switch off, it really usually is the teacher who is coming and saying "Well here is the curriculum. Here is what we have gotta get through. Here is what I would like you to do." Well, realistically there is very little choice because the curriculums are mandated. So we really are between a rock and hard place wouldn't you say?
RICHARD: Yes we are. I mean I could come back to my first big revelation when I was a teacher, in my first year of teaching. It was so obvious to me that my students weren't engaged. They weren't on the same page. And I am thinking "before I can do anything I have to get these kids focused". I called it ‘focus’ back then but it was actually engagement. “I have to get my students on my page, on my team.” It was so obvious to me that this was the first goal to achieve. And that there is no other goal until you have that one nailed - otherwise you are wasting your time. And I have taught for a long time, but this doesn't seem to be a default understanding in all teachers that I’ve encountered. I mean, for me it was such an obvious Number One but for others, it seemed to be "Oh, engagement is just a thing - yeah, it is important but, you know, there are many other things to work on.”
COLIN: So, let's go back to traditional teaching training then and you often hear about learning things like Teaching and Classroom Management 101 where you learn how to manage and handle the classroom. Perhaps the bigger question that we need to be asking is: Does engagement precede all other conditions for quality learning and student participation? So, for example, if my students were engaged, would I have to manage them?
RICHARD: Well, that's a very good question. And I think the answer to that, assuming the teacher can handle a bunch of engaged students - and if there is 15 to 20 of them then there are 15 to 20 different things they can do - then I would say if they are engaged then what they need is guidance, active guidance by the teacher. And so the management of them, the behaviour management, is steering them in the best possible direction for their learning.
COLIN: Well, I have had a previous guest on the show, Ron Richard, who talks about management as being a really problematic word to use when it comes to the classroom; because, let's face it, who wants to manage children? That seems to fly in the face of the whole idea of good teaching and learning; because, if it slides down into management then it’s really becoming a very process oriented task, isn't it?
RICHARD: Well true but if you walk into a class that is completely ‘off the wall’ then I think your behaviour management techniques are critical. I see student management and engagement to be very linked.
COLIN: The two sides of the same coin perhaps.
RICHARD: Perhaps, but some techniques lean towards student management and others lean more towards engagement. It’s is a very grey area. I mean if I was running a course, and had planned that the first half would look at student management strategies and next half at engagement strategies - that would be silly because the two are so interlinked. But I do agree that if your students are engaged then you don’t need to manage the students as such … you just need to manage their engagement!
COLIN: So, are we saying then that the engagement does precede all other conditions, I mean is it worth even trying to teach someone something if they are not engaged with it?
RICHARD: Well, no, I don’t think it is! And that was the revelation I got as a 23-year-old first—year-out teacher and that was so obvious to me. That no, I have to engage these students first, otherwise, everything is a waste of time and I may as well throw the curriculum out of the window.
COLIN: All right. Well, let's talk about how to make that actually happen, right? Because you have mentioned or you have made a comment in a discussion we have had previously about getting engaged and being on the same page. Now that sort of sounds like a modern truism or something that's sound pretty easy to say or a bit trendy, but how do we actually go about doing that? We talk a little bit about what to do and what not to do.
RICHARD: Well, it is easy to talk about what not to do!
COLIN: All right. Well, let's talk about what not to do - how to avoid disengaging students?
RICHARD: You mean how to disengage students?
COLIN: Yeah. In other words. Yeah. Let's disengage them.
RICHARD: Let's disengage them. Look this is easy. And I am talking from experience here - I was an expert!
COLIN: You have made all the mistakes
RICHARD: Look … I know this is one of the things that people appreciate about my courses; because I am transparent. And I can openly say that I think I have made ‘more mistakes than any other teacher alive’. Have you been to those workshops where the presenter is out front and you think, "Oh my God this is the first perfect teacher I have ever met - this person has clearly never made any mistakes, he was obviously a gun teacher from day one, teaching has always been ‘squeaky clean’ for him?” I don't think that having a presenter like that actually helps much! Clearly, I am not that person!
Anyway, so here is my number one: just be a grouch. Be grumpy, and unsmiling. Yell at them. It always works. You just turn the kids off from day one. And ironically it is usually the students who get that sort of treatment that are the ones who least need it because they are ones who have learnt to be ‘off to wall’ and who need engaging and turning around. I have had classes in the past where I thought, "Right today I am going to be really positive for at least the first 5 minutes. I am going to be positive. I am going to be positive." And I walk into the class and within 10 seconds I am barking at the same kid again because he did something that annoyed me.
COLIN: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
RICHARD: And I think “ten seconds Richard … you lasted 10 seconds. Well done (NOT)!
COLIN: Well then that kind of flies in the face of what I was taught when I was starting in my teaching career because a very highly esteemed person who was in the administrative position said, "Oh and remember don't smile until Easter."
RICHARD: Bill Rogers quotes that one and he quotes it as "the most destructive piece of information you can give any teacher" and yet so many people have heard it. Look, if I go back to my early years of teaching, it can be really difficult to find that line between being fair and actually having control. Early in my career, I’d be a week or two into the new year and I’d be thinking, "This class is fantastic. I have really got them on-side and under control" and another two weeks would go by and the class had turned on me and I’d think "How did that happen? I didn't see it coming.” I honestly didn't see it happening and it happened about 3 years in a row. Not in every class but some classes and I couldn't work out how it happened. I think if you progress to becoming a good teacher you get really good at putting out the fires when they are only sparks. Experienced teachers recognise the sparks. Inexperienced teachers don’t. The students seem fine one week and the next there’s an out of control wildfire!
COLIN: What about punishment? Should we use punishment?
RICHARD: This is my number 3 or 4 I think. Using punishment is guaranteed to get kids offside - if they do something wrong, punish them. It doesn't work. It never works. It doesn't even work in the prison system. It’s like a thousand years old and we should not do it anymore. Consequences, yes. And fire-side chats - I’m a big fan of fireside chats. You know … some student is acting up, "See me after class, Torin" And then after the class, "Look mate what's going on? You are acting as though (describe the situation) and you know that's not what you want to do, is it? What's happening? You tell me … ” And you get them to see your side of the story, the effect they are having on the class. I even had one boy - I was convinced he didn't see how he is speaking out of turn and affecting the class - and I said, "I don't think you know what you look like. Is it okay if we do a role play? So, you will be me and I will be you." And so for about 30 seconds, I became him with him being the teacher out the front. Then I said, "That's what it looks like, what do you think?" And he says, "That's pretty awful". But you know you just treat them as young human beings because that's what they are. I think a lot of teachers - and I have been guilty of this in past - talk AT kids. Like parents who talk AT their kids (rather than WITH their kids) - it’s as if children are seen as some other species, not animals but not humans either, some species that don’t deserve being talked WITH, not as equals on some level. They are some other species and we superior grown-ups have the right to talk at them. That it's another certain strategy to disengage students by the way … talk AT them.
COLIN: Is that why lecturing is also a problem?
RICHARD: Lecturing usually doesn't work, although some lecturers are incredibly engaging. But here is a classic disengagement strategy - and it took me 20 years to work this out: Pretend to be authoritarian when you are not. So, you know those teachers - they always used to annoy me - but I was in awe of them - they would walk into a class and everyone would go quiet. You might have been one of them Colin but I certainly wasn't. And so I always thought it was something that I needed to attain (to be an authoritarian) and the only way I thought I could attain it was to be stern and strict and grumpy with those students who were off-side. And so that was the catch 22 until I realised one day that I had this person in the room - ME - who was in total opposition to what I was trying to achieve. I was just being this grumpy person with off-side students. And at that moment I thought “I have to get that guy out of the room!” And I was that grumpy person, but I’m actually NOT that person. I am actually quite a fun loving, jolly person. And once I learned to relax and be myself in the classroom, it all turned around and I had way more control than I’d ever had previously.
COLIN: Richard, great to have you back on the show.
RICHARD: Yeah. It is great to be here Colin.
COLIN: When it comes to engagement you have quite an experience. You have been around and seeing quite a lot of different situations. Can you give us the scope of what that looks like?
RICHARD: My first stint of teaching was in Clare High School in South Australia. I am a South Australian by birth. I spent six years there. It was a fantastic start to teaching, and a country boy couldn't have asked for a better, friendly staff and students. But my first year teaching was probably as challenging as it gets in terms of just ‘tough’ - you know, ‘at war with the students’. So, in my first year if I had two good lessons in a week that made for a pretty good week. Conversely, in my second year of teaching, if I had two bad lessons in a week I considered that a bad week. So, I went from one extreme to another.
Then I was struck by the nomadic urge so after 6 years of teaching there, I had probably 7 or 8 years where I was quite nomadic. I did a lot of casual teaching, maths tuition, hospitality and so on. With the casual teaching, I clocked up 30+ schools.
COLIN: So that took you all around Australia, didn't it?
RICHARD: Well, Northern Territory, South Australia and New South Wales. The Northern Territory was a very diverse experience. I’ve had three permanent stints altogether, two after Clare. One was a 2-year stint in a little Jewish school where there were literally 38 students in the whole 7 to 10 school!! That was an extraordinary learning experience. And so I was pretty much the entire mathematics department there.
My final permanent stint was also at a small school - well it was small initially because I started when it was in its third year of operation. And so once again for a couple of years, I was pretty much the entire maths department. Those two experiences allowed me a great deal of opportunity to experiment because, I didn't have a Head of Department saying, "No you can't do that Richard …” I had a lot of free-reign which made it very interesting. But in total, we are probably talking 30+ schools and probably, I don't know, maybe 400 different classes. Obviously, a lot of them were my classes but a lot weren’t.
COLIN: Casual teaching or as they say in the states ‘the substitute teacher’, I think would immediately conjure up images in people's minds of "that person who doesn't get as much respect as the usual teacher or perhaps significantly less engagement". Has that been your experience?
RICHARD: Yes there is obviously that element to it. However, if I am to compare myself in a class with what I perceive is the normal situation with their normal teacher, there would be times, sure, when I think that students are acting up for me in the way that they wouldn't be for their normal teacher. But there’s also the flip side which is kind of sad when you think about it - situations when I clicked with a class after the students realised that I actually had something to offer. And when they say at the end, "Oh Gee I wish we had you as our normal teacher" … I mean it is nice to hear but also a bit sad. And it’s never because I’ve let them play tiddlywinks or whatever. It was because we did some things that the students knew were worthwhile. So, really, casual teaching is a mixed bag in terms of respect.
COLIN: So, it must be quite awkward then to think well what do I say to the regular teacher when I have to report back on what happened, you know? Because you have to write notes about how the lesson went and how motivated the students were and so forth. Is that sometimes being a problem for you as well?
RICHARD: No. No. Not really. If I thought I had performed better than their usual teacher I wouldn’t mention it - I’d just say what the students covered. Actually, it would be a good to mention a few examples here because at one end of the spectrum there was one particular school which had a very good culture and there was one lesson I remember where I looked to the lesson plan and I thought wow … this is quite a complicated lesson! There was equipment and group work and some sort of game situation and I thought “This is going to be interesting - and potentially a disaster!” So I started the lesson and these students took one look at me, obviously thought I could run the lesson and totally allowed me to call the shots. The lesson turned out to be one of the best lessons ever. I didn’t know any of their names … but it was the culture in that school and the culture in that classroom which allowed me to teach well.
Then you have the other end of the spectrum - a class of Yr 9 girls - a classic … I’ve never seen a better strategy by a bunch of students to completely thwart a casual teacher. I look back and take my hat off to them!!
COLIN: Sounds painful.
RICHARD: I walked into this class and it is not that they were running riot or anything. From memory, they were all girls. And the strategy they used was this “Just pretend he is not in the room.”
COLIN: Oh no. You were shunned.
RICHARD: Yeah I know … so they had all these conversations going on and I was politely trying to gain their attention … but to them, I didn't exist. I wasn't in the room. And I’m thinking, "This is phenomenal. These girls have this game nailed. This is a really good ploy. I have never seen this since. It’s as good (bad) as it gets I think!” Somehow, I eventually I got their attention and some work happened but, well, that's an example from the another end of the spectrum.
And then there was a maths class - actually there were quite a few that went like this - but you know what it’s like, you walk into a class and immediately you know these students are not up for doing any work. It ain't going to happen, right?
As a casual teacher, I refused to go war with students. It is just a losing game in my view. I would rather work with students who want to be engaged (and let the engagement spread). So, I simply wrote the instructions on the board and then I quietly said to them "Okay, this is what is required. Everyone got that? Any questions?" And I knew, of course, that initially, nothing would happen. And I was right! But after a few minutes, I walked around the room and sidled up to one of these students (sitting there doing nothing) and said: "What's your name?" "John". "John, it looks to me like you are not intending to do any work today."
COLIN: Just tell it like it is.
RICHARD: Yes. He just looked at me and said “Ah … Yeah. Yeah. Right." So I replied, “I thought so.” And I just moved on. And I repeated this with a few other students. It was a psychological ploy - I just wanted them to realise that I knew what was going on and also, that I was operating a bit left-of-field. I wanted to surprise them a bit and show I wasn’t concerned.
And so I did this with a few students and then went back out the front.
And then a couple of minutes later, I announced to them all "Look, you guys don't know me but I am actually a really good maths teacher - I’m really good at explaining maths. No seriously, I am! Why don't you try me out?"
COLIN: Okay. Good technique.
RICHARD: So, a couple of these kids put their hand up. I wasn't trying to get blanket coverage - I just wanted to ignite some students. So, a couple of these students started asking me questions and so I did my stuff. And they were impressed. The maths I was explaining clearly made sense in a way that I could tell was new for them. And then few other students got involved, and a few more. I didn't win them all over but I probably had half of the students working and engaged in the end.
And so by the end of the lesson, I had some of these kids saying "That was great and I wish we could you all the time." Which was sad because clearly I had hit a mark that their normal teacher didn't - because with a class like you can tell what the normal state of play is. And it ain’t pretty!
COLIN: Yeah and it is interesting, isn't? That despite the initial appearance of no engagement or no desire for engagement, it is kind of there if you scratch underneath the surface.
RICHARD: Exactly - you need to go for what is there, like a seed under the ground.
COLIN: Which leads me to ask you about a comment that you have made about engagement sometimes being the elephant in the room. Why do you think it is engagement, in particular, that is the elephant?
RICHARD: Well, I don't actually think it is 'engagement' that is the elephant. I think it is disengagement. It’s true. I should state that my entire experience has been in high schools. I have some friends who have been primary teachers and I have been in their classrooms. I’m not sure how representative they are of primary teachers generally but they showed me some amazing primary teaching. I do suspect there is generally a higher level of engagement in the primary arena compared to high schools but that's anecdotal - I really have no tangible data on that. But all my experience has been in high schools.
So, if we are going to talk about the elephant I think we need to define what engagement is. You know that recently I built a deck. I had never built anything of consequence before this. I built lots of rustic, recycled wood projects which I enjoy doing but this is the first time I spent serious money on wood and equipment and I thought "If I stuff this up, you know, there will be tears!"
COLIN: You know someone might hurt themselves.
RICHARD: Well yes that's possible but more likely was the possibility of throwing $2,000 down the drain and spending hours and hours on something that I'd have to look at and think "That's absolute rubbish!" How depressing would that be? So, there was a bit of pride at stake but my point is I did a great deal of research for this and stressed out a bit and made plans and double and triple checked and then finally started on the deck and then realised that the real problems to be solved were not even mentioned in the videos I watched. But I got right into it. That was an amazingly engaging project and I am stoked with the product. I think that's a definition of true engagement in a learning process.
But then we come to education in the classroom, and of course, that's what the Learn Implement Share courses are all about. In one of my courses, I ask teachers to describe what they would consider an engaged classroom to be. And I knew you were going to ask this question Colin so I’ve got a couple written down here. One participant's definition of engagement is "An Engaged classroom is one where all students are actively involved with exploring the concept under discussion. It probably doesn't look organised or quiet."
COLIN: Oh that's interesting.
RICHARD: Yeah. And another one was “An engaged classroom is one where students feel they are able to take charge of their own learning, where the teacher facilitates students at their different levels and students are intrinsically motivated to complete their work. They are able to make real-world connections. Engaged students check their answers and actively seek to understand their work. They feel comfortable and safe to offer responses and questions about the content and are able to work collaboratively."
And there are other ones as well but they are all on that same sort of theme. So, if that's what engagement is then the question needs to be asked: What percentage of students today - on any one day - are engaged like that?
COLIN: Yeah and how many of those students would actually all agree with that definition? I mean surely there have to be some students who just don't want to have work that hard during the day to be that engaged?
RICHARD: Well absolutely they don't. But then again most students probably have no idea what it would be like - how much fun it would be - to be THAT engaged in class anyway!
In a previous podcast, we talked about toddlers. If you look at toddlers they are pretty engaged in whatever they are doing. I mean, that's an understatement. They are fully engaged in whatever they are doing!!
COLIN: Yeah that's right. And it seems to go on for quite a number of years until they get into very late primary school or early high school, it really started to tip the other way.
RICHARD: I think it can happen before then. I just think, when education is imposed on kids, the fire goes out. I don't know about you but if someone comes to me and really wants to teach me something that I have absolutely no interest in, well, I’m not going to learn anything. But if I want to learn about building a deck and I’m talking to you and you have already built one, then I am going to be picking your brains big time!
I think the issue has a lot to do with institutionalised learning. When learning is imposed - “Right, we’ve developed the curriculum for you and we are going to state what you are going to learn and how you are going to learn and when you are going to learn” - then I think the fire begins to die.
COLIN: Well, I think that's why you are probably hinting at the fact that it is disengagement that's the elephant in the room; because, when the students get to that point where they start to switch off, it really usually is the teacher who is coming and saying "Well here is the curriculum. Here is what we have gotta get through. Here is what I would like you to do." Well, realistically there is very little choice because the curriculums are mandated. So we really are between a rock and hard place wouldn't you say?
RICHARD: Yes we are. I mean I could come back to my first big revelation when I was a teacher, in my first year of teaching. It was so obvious to me that my students weren't engaged. They weren't on the same page. And I am thinking "before I can do anything I have to get these kids focused". I called it ‘focus’ back then but it was actually engagement. “I have to get my students on my page, on my team.” It was so obvious to me that this was the first goal to achieve. And that there is no other goal until you have that one nailed - otherwise you are wasting your time. And I have taught for a long time, but this doesn't seem to be a default understanding in all teachers that I’ve encountered. I mean, for me it was such an obvious Number One but for others, it seemed to be "Oh, engagement is just a thing - yeah, it is important but, you know, there are many other things to work on.”
COLIN: So, let's go back to traditional teaching training then and you often hear about learning things like Teaching and Classroom Management 101 where you learn how to manage and handle the classroom. Perhaps the bigger question that we need to be asking is: Does engagement precede all other conditions for quality learning and student participation? So, for example, if my students were engaged, would I have to manage them?
RICHARD: Well, that's a very good question. And I think the answer to that, assuming the teacher can handle a bunch of engaged students - and if there is 15 to 20 of them then there are 15 to 20 different things they can do - then I would say if they are engaged then what they need is guidance, active guidance by the teacher. And so the management of them, the behaviour management, is steering them in the best possible direction for their learning.
COLIN: Well, I have had a previous guest on the show, Ron Richard, who talks about management as being a really problematic word to use when it comes to the classroom; because, let's face it, who wants to manage children? That seems to fly in the face of the whole idea of good teaching and learning; because, if it slides down into management then it’s really becoming a very process oriented task, isn't it?
RICHARD: Well true but if you walk into a class that is completely ‘off the wall’ then I think your behaviour management techniques are critical. I see student management and engagement to be very linked.
COLIN: The two sides of the same coin perhaps.
RICHARD: Perhaps, but some techniques lean towards student management and others lean more towards engagement. It’s is a very grey area. I mean if I was running a course, and had planned that the first half would look at student management strategies and next half at engagement strategies - that would be silly because the two are so interlinked. But I do agree that if your students are engaged then you don’t need to manage the students as such … you just need to manage their engagement!
COLIN: So, are we saying then that the engagement does precede all other conditions, I mean is it worth even trying to teach someone something if they are not engaged with it?
RICHARD: Well, no, I don’t think it is! And that was the revelation I got as a 23-year-old first—year-out teacher and that was so obvious to me. That no, I have to engage these students first, otherwise, everything is a waste of time and I may as well throw the curriculum out of the window.
COLIN: All right. Well, let's talk about how to make that actually happen, right? Because you have mentioned or you have made a comment in a discussion we have had previously about getting engaged and being on the same page. Now that sort of sounds like a modern truism or something that's sound pretty easy to say or a bit trendy, but how do we actually go about doing that? We talk a little bit about what to do and what not to do.
RICHARD: Well, it is easy to talk about what not to do!
COLIN: All right. Well, let's talk about what not to do - how to avoid disengaging students?
RICHARD: You mean how to disengage students?
COLIN: Yeah. In other words. Yeah. Let's disengage them.
RICHARD: Let's disengage them. Look this is easy. And I am talking from experience here - I was an expert!
COLIN: You have made all the mistakes
RICHARD: Look … I know this is one of the things that people appreciate about my courses; because I am transparent. And I can openly say that I think I have made ‘more mistakes than any other teacher alive’. Have you been to those workshops where the presenter is out front and you think, "Oh my God this is the first perfect teacher I have ever met - this person has clearly never made any mistakes, he was obviously a gun teacher from day one, teaching has always been ‘squeaky clean’ for him?” I don't think that having a presenter like that actually helps much! Clearly, I am not that person!
Anyway, so here is my number one: just be a grouch. Be grumpy, and unsmiling. Yell at them. It always works. You just turn the kids off from day one. And ironically it is usually the students who get that sort of treatment that are the ones who least need it because they are ones who have learnt to be ‘off to wall’ and who need engaging and turning around. I have had classes in the past where I thought, "Right today I am going to be really positive for at least the first 5 minutes. I am going to be positive. I am going to be positive." And I walk into the class and within 10 seconds I am barking at the same kid again because he did something that annoyed me.
COLIN: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
RICHARD: And I think “ten seconds Richard … you lasted 10 seconds. Well done (NOT)!
COLIN: Well then that kind of flies in the face of what I was taught when I was starting in my teaching career because a very highly esteemed person who was in the administrative position said, "Oh and remember don't smile until Easter."
RICHARD: Bill Rogers quotes that one and he quotes it as "the most destructive piece of information you can give any teacher" and yet so many people have heard it. Look, if I go back to my early years of teaching, it can be really difficult to find that line between being fair and actually having control. Early in my career, I’d be a week or two into the new year and I’d be thinking, "This class is fantastic. I have really got them on-side and under control" and another two weeks would go by and the class had turned on me and I’d think "How did that happen? I didn't see it coming.” I honestly didn't see it happening and it happened about 3 years in a row. Not in every class but some classes and I couldn't work out how it happened. I think if you progress to becoming a good teacher you get really good at putting out the fires when they are only sparks. Experienced teachers recognise the sparks. Inexperienced teachers don’t. The students seem fine one week and the next there’s an out of control wildfire!
COLIN: What about punishment? Should we use punishment?
RICHARD: This is my number 3 or 4 I think. Using punishment is guaranteed to get kids offside - if they do something wrong, punish them. It doesn't work. It never works. It doesn't even work in the prison system. It’s like a thousand years old and we should not do it anymore. Consequences, yes. And fire-side chats - I’m a big fan of fireside chats. You know … some student is acting up, "See me after class, Torin" And then after the class, "Look mate what's going on? You are acting as though (describe the situation) and you know that's not what you want to do, is it? What's happening? You tell me … ” And you get them to see your side of the story, the effect they are having on the class. I even had one boy - I was convinced he didn't see how he is speaking out of turn and affecting the class - and I said, "I don't think you know what you look like. Is it okay if we do a role play? So, you will be me and I will be you." And so for about 30 seconds, I became him with him being the teacher out the front. Then I said, "That's what it looks like, what do you think?" And he says, "That's pretty awful". But you know you just treat them as young human beings because that's what they are. I think a lot of teachers - and I have been guilty of this in past - talk AT kids. Like parents who talk AT their kids (rather than WITH their kids) - it’s as if children are seen as some other species, not animals but not humans either, some species that don’t deserve being talked WITH, not as equals on some level. They are some other species and we superior grown-ups have the right to talk at them. That it's another certain strategy to disengage students by the way … talk AT them.
COLIN: Is that why lecturing is also a problem?
RICHARD: Lecturing usually doesn't work, although some lecturers are incredibly engaging. But here is a classic disengagement strategy - and it took me 20 years to work this out: Pretend to be authoritarian when you are not. So, you know those teachers - they always used to annoy me - but I was in awe of them - they would walk into a class and everyone would go quiet. You might have been one of them Colin but I certainly wasn't. And so I always thought it was something that I needed to attain (to be an authoritarian) and the only way I thought I could attain it was to be stern and strict and grumpy with those students who were off-side. And so that was the catch 22 until I realised one day that I had this person in the room - ME - who was in total opposition to what I was trying to achieve. I was just being this grumpy person with off-side students. And at that moment I thought “I have to get that guy out of the room!” And I was that grumpy person, but I’m actually NOT that person. I am actually quite a fun loving, jolly person. And once I learned to relax and be myself in the classroom, it all turned around and I had way more control than I’d ever had previously.
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COLIN: Showing your true self, your fun loving self, was the first step in some of the more effective strategies that you have seen and used?
RICHARD: Well, yeah it comes down to little things. You know how some students will do things to deliberately bait you - so you walk into the room and you see this boy diving across the room to catch the duster with a dramatic landing on the floor, big noise and all that. Now, in the past, I would immediately pounce on that. But one time - after stopping trying to be The Authoritarian - I just looked at him with the other students all looking at me, wondering how I’d react, and I just stood there and I gave him a slow hand clap. “That was impressive Tim. Very impressive. Well done. So you have earned the right to sit at this desk. There you go.” As I’m dusting the ‘solo’ desk down with a relaxed smile on my face. “Thank you very much. That was brilliant. There you go and here’s your first prize - the desk at the front.” So there was an action, and there was a consequence but I didn't get worked up over it. I made light of the situation. I got what I wanted. The kid got his attention. Everyone is happy. We move on. You know what I mean? So much better than in the past where I used to just react to stuff in the classroom in a way that made my job more difficult.
COLIN: So, should students think that you like them?
RICHARD: Absolutely. And this is a very hot topic for a lot of teachers, many of them saying “It’s not my job to be liked by the students, it’s my job to teach them”. Well, it’s not about trying to become their friend! And this is why teachers react, because, they have seen other teachers trying to become friends with students and of course that always backfires. That's the worst thing you could ever do as a teacher. It is not about that. But here is the thing, if a student thinks - whether it is true or not is irrelevant - if they think you don't like them, then they are not going to learn from you. And this is especially true for boys. Steve Biddulph - the psychologist - says this, that it is especially strong for boys. Girls are a bit more resilient. But I think it is also very much the case with girls. “If a student thinks you dislike them, they can't learn from you".
COLIN: So is disengagement one of those things that school administrators know is the elephant in the room, as we have just been talking about? But it is so hot to touch and so difficult to talk about that they just wish that people wouldn't really talk about it so much and we just keep quiet and carry on.
RICHARD: I don't think I am qualified to speak on behalf of school administrators. Theirs is a tough gig and one that I was never prepared to take on. Look, I am sure some are extremely aware of the engagement issue and I know some who are doing an enormous amount to improve the situation in their schools. I suspect some others are aware but don't know how to go about it or feel powerless. And there are perhaps some who are blind to the issue due to various factors. And I think it is human nature that when there is an issue as big as disengagement you are going to have all sorts of different human reactions to it from ‘burying my head in the sand’ to actually tackling it head-on. But I think it’s more of a political thing. See, good courses on engagement are not very popular, partly perhaps because many engagement courses have been short-term or not very good and with no resulting change in participants. And engaging students is a hard road that requires a long-term approach with implementations of ideas and reflecting and reporting back to the course etc. So I think it tends to be the courses peddling the latest trendy, buzz ideas which attract the biggest audience. I’m not saying these are not important as well, but as we said before, if students aren’t engaged then any ideas, latest or not, won’t work!
COLIN: Perhaps that explains those in-house PD days where you have to endure the topic like engagement, because, it is really a sprinkling of ideas from down upon high- ‘this is what we are going to do to professionally develop ourselves but really, in the end, we all know that it is a long-term strategy as therefore if we just talk about it a little bit today the issue will sort of dissipate a little bit as time passes’?
RICHARD: Yeah let's face it. If the PD is not engaging, then it has to be endured, doesn’t it?
COLIN: There is no escape.
RICHARD: Look, I think I am pretty good at what I do and I certainly gain consistent feedback from participants who engage in my courses. But I think one of the things that help me deliver quality programs is the fact that I have done a lot of professional development as a teacher and I worked out very quickly what works and what doesn't. And I certainly avoid replicating Professional Development from my teaching days that isn’t engaging and doesn’t create real change in the classroom.
COLIN: Richard thanks very much for your time.
RICHARD: It’s been a pleasure.
RICHARD: Well, yeah it comes down to little things. You know how some students will do things to deliberately bait you - so you walk into the room and you see this boy diving across the room to catch the duster with a dramatic landing on the floor, big noise and all that. Now, in the past, I would immediately pounce on that. But one time - after stopping trying to be The Authoritarian - I just looked at him with the other students all looking at me, wondering how I’d react, and I just stood there and I gave him a slow hand clap. “That was impressive Tim. Very impressive. Well done. So you have earned the right to sit at this desk. There you go.” As I’m dusting the ‘solo’ desk down with a relaxed smile on my face. “Thank you very much. That was brilliant. There you go and here’s your first prize - the desk at the front.” So there was an action, and there was a consequence but I didn't get worked up over it. I made light of the situation. I got what I wanted. The kid got his attention. Everyone is happy. We move on. You know what I mean? So much better than in the past where I used to just react to stuff in the classroom in a way that made my job more difficult.
COLIN: So, should students think that you like them?
RICHARD: Absolutely. And this is a very hot topic for a lot of teachers, many of them saying “It’s not my job to be liked by the students, it’s my job to teach them”. Well, it’s not about trying to become their friend! And this is why teachers react, because, they have seen other teachers trying to become friends with students and of course that always backfires. That's the worst thing you could ever do as a teacher. It is not about that. But here is the thing, if a student thinks - whether it is true or not is irrelevant - if they think you don't like them, then they are not going to learn from you. And this is especially true for boys. Steve Biddulph - the psychologist - says this, that it is especially strong for boys. Girls are a bit more resilient. But I think it is also very much the case with girls. “If a student thinks you dislike them, they can't learn from you".
COLIN: So is disengagement one of those things that school administrators know is the elephant in the room, as we have just been talking about? But it is so hot to touch and so difficult to talk about that they just wish that people wouldn't really talk about it so much and we just keep quiet and carry on.
RICHARD: I don't think I am qualified to speak on behalf of school administrators. Theirs is a tough gig and one that I was never prepared to take on. Look, I am sure some are extremely aware of the engagement issue and I know some who are doing an enormous amount to improve the situation in their schools. I suspect some others are aware but don't know how to go about it or feel powerless. And there are perhaps some who are blind to the issue due to various factors. And I think it is human nature that when there is an issue as big as disengagement you are going to have all sorts of different human reactions to it from ‘burying my head in the sand’ to actually tackling it head-on. But I think it’s more of a political thing. See, good courses on engagement are not very popular, partly perhaps because many engagement courses have been short-term or not very good and with no resulting change in participants. And engaging students is a hard road that requires a long-term approach with implementations of ideas and reflecting and reporting back to the course etc. So I think it tends to be the courses peddling the latest trendy, buzz ideas which attract the biggest audience. I’m not saying these are not important as well, but as we said before, if students aren’t engaged then any ideas, latest or not, won’t work!
COLIN: Perhaps that explains those in-house PD days where you have to endure the topic like engagement, because, it is really a sprinkling of ideas from down upon high- ‘this is what we are going to do to professionally develop ourselves but really, in the end, we all know that it is a long-term strategy as therefore if we just talk about it a little bit today the issue will sort of dissipate a little bit as time passes’?
RICHARD: Yeah let's face it. If the PD is not engaging, then it has to be endured, doesn’t it?
COLIN: There is no escape.
RICHARD: Look, I think I am pretty good at what I do and I certainly gain consistent feedback from participants who engage in my courses. But I think one of the things that help me deliver quality programs is the fact that I have done a lot of professional development as a teacher and I worked out very quickly what works and what doesn't. And I certainly avoid replicating Professional Development from my teaching days that isn’t engaging and doesn’t create real change in the classroom.
COLIN: Richard thanks very much for your time.
RICHARD: It’s been a pleasure.
